hoola, on 22 Jul 2014 - 3:14 PM, said:

I liked strange's question....do hydrogen atoms really move due to the movement of the electron...? I would presume that movement is due to electron repulsion from adjacent atoms...

For an isolated hydrogen atom, there is no adjacent atom.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 3:41 PM, said:

 

For an isolated hydrogen atom, there is no adjacent atom.

But, again, you haven't answered the question!

Strange, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:03 PM, said:

 

But, again, you haven't answered the question!

In the hygrogen atom, there is an electron and a proton. As a clsssical mechanical system, that is a two-body system. About the treatment for two-body system, you could find the answer from text book of physics about mechanics and movement.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:20 PM, said:

 

In the hygrogen atom, there is an electron and a proton. As a clsssical mechanical system, that is a two-body system. About the treatment for two-body system, you could find the answer from text book of physics about mechanics and movement.

You still haven't answered the question. The question is: do hydrogen atoms move because of the movement of the electrons?

I am not asking about classical mechanics, two body systems, or text books. After all, the hydrogen atom is not a classical system so all of that is irrelevant. I am asking about what actually happens.

So, again, can you provide a reference that shows experimental measurements of a hydrogen atom oscillating due to the movement of the electron?

Strange, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:25 PM, said:

 

You still haven't answered the question. The question is: do hydrogen atoms move because of the movement of the electrons?

 

I am not asking about classical mechanics, two body systems, or text books. After all, the hydrogen atom is not a classical system so all of that is irrelevant. I am asking about what actually happens.

 

So, again, can you provide a reference that shows experimental measurements of a hydrogen atom oscillating due to the movement of the electron?

I think the hydrogen atom is classical system.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:34 PM, said:

 

I think the hydrogen atom is classical system.

And I am asking for evidence to support that.

Your starting point was that the quantum model cannot explain the periodic movement of the hydrogen atom. But you have not yet provided any evidence that this periodic movement exists.

So, your argument appears to be:

1. If the atom is classical then there would be periodic movement.

2. Quantum theory cannot explain this periodic movement.

3. Therefore the classical model must be correct.

Is that correct?

If so: http://en.wikipedia....ng_the_question

Edited by Strange, 22 July 2014 - 08:47 AM.

swansont, on 22 Jul 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

I took this to mean that you don't get classical equations of motion from the Schrödinger equation.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

WKB approximation is only a mathematical method or semiclassical calcultion for finding approximate solutions for the quantum sysytem, the reliability of results depends on whether the  Schrödinger equation of the quantum system is correct.

Strange, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:46 PM, said:

 

And I am asking for evidence to support that.

 

Your starting point was that the quantum model cannot explain the periodic movement of the hydrogen atom. But you have not yet provided any evidence that this periodic movement exists.

 

So, your argument appears to be:

 

1. If the atom is classical then there would be periodic movement.

2. Quantum theory cannot explain this periodic movement.

3. Therefore the classical model must be correct.

 

Is that correct?

 

If so: http://en.wikipedia....ng_the_question

Please read post #10 my answer for ajb

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:34 PM, said:

I think the hydrogen atom is classical system.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:52 PM, said:

 

Please read post #10 my answer for ajb

I have looked at post #10 again. I don't see a reference to experimental evidence for periodic movement of the hydrogen atom due to the movement of the electron.

Does such evidence exist: yes or no?

I am very disappointed. I thought I was going to learn something new....

ajb, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:52 PM, said:

My thought was that as the WKB gives you quasi-classical trajectories then one maybe able to think about "orbits" with a lot of care.

See above.

In microworld, there are classical and quantum (or resonance) phenomenon,  Schrödinger equation is a powerful mathematical tool to solve the resonance phenomenon.

Strange, on 22 Jul 2014 - 4:58 PM, said:

 

I have looked at post #10 again. I don't see a reference to experimental evidence for periodic movement of the hydrogen atom due to the movement of the electron.

 

Does such evidence exist: yes or no?

 

I am very disappointed. I thought I was going to learn something new....

I think the structure and linear spectrum of the hydrogen atom could be interpretted by classical theory actually.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:09 PM, said:

In microworld, there are classical and quantum (or resonance) phenomenon,  Schrödinger equation is a powerful mathematical tool to solve the resonance phenomenon.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:09 PM, said:

I think the structure and linear spectrum of the hydrogen atom could be interpretted by classical theory actually.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:09 PM, said:

I think the structure and linear spectrum of the hydrogen atom could be interpretted by classical theory actually.

So you admit you have no evidence that there is periodic movement of the hydrogen atom caused by the movement of electrons.

Thank you.

Strange, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:28 PM, said:

 

So you admit you have no evidence that there is periodic movement of the hydrogen atom caused by the movement of electrons.

 

Thank you.

Electron moves along the orbit is a kind of periodic movement, isn't it?

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:33 PM, said:

Electron moves along the orbit is a kind of periodic movement, isn't it?

ajb, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:12 PM, said:

Right, but you could use this with the WKB and path integrals to get at a quasi-classical trajectory. I wonder if you can do this and ragain some notion of an orbit. I really don't know and have not seen it does, maybe you can maybe soemthing goes wrong.


Okay, so if you reject quantum mechanics from the start, then you can forget my suggestion.

I reject quantum mechanics, because I think QM denies the causality of nature, and I found we mistook classical theory for the problem of the hydrogen atom

ajb, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:37 PM, said:

But this exactly the classical notions we are a bit uncomfortable with in this context.

If it is trues, I think we should accept it.

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:40 PM, said:

 

I reject quantum mechanics, because I think QM denies the causality of nature, and I found we mistook classical theory for the problem of the hydrogen atom

Then you need to solve all of the problems that others before you could not.

For example, in the Bohr model, the ground state of Hydrogen has 1 hbar of angular momentum. That should give a contribution to the magnetic moment of the atom. In QM, the orbital angular momentum is zero, giving no contribution to the magnetic moment. Only one of these can be correct. Which one?

Jeremy0922, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:40 PM, said:

I reject quantum mechanics, because I think QM denies the causality of nature, and I found we mistook classical theory for the problem of the hydrogen atom

Edited by ajb, 22 July 2014 - 09:53 AM.

swansont, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:49 PM, said:

 

Then you need to solve all of the problems that others before you could not.

 

For example, in the Bohr model, the ground state of Hydrogen has 1 hbar of angular momentum. That should give a contribution to the magnetic moment of the atom. In QM, the orbital angular momentum is zero, giving no contribution to the magnetic moment. Only one of these can be correct. Which one?

By QM, angular momentum.is only the interpretation about quantum number from the solution of Schrödinger equation, but I do not wether it means angular momentum in physics. By classical theory, the ground orbit of the electron is a circle.

ajb, on 22 Jul 2014 - 5:52 PM, said:

I don't know if the violation of causlity here is rather a philosophical thing, I assume you are talking about things like spontaneous decays and so on. For sure, quantum mechanics gives another view on cauality, but I don't think that is really enough to simply reject it.

Also, remember that the hydrogen atom is not the only system well described by quantum mechanics.

As we known, the solution about the hydrogen atom is the greatest and outstanding work for quantum mechanics.